Somethng that annoyed me yesterday...

[msfledermaus]

I went down to the corner store yesterday since I was out of milk, and while the guy behind the counter was totalling me up, his girlfriend was bagging my groceries. Nice kids. The thing that annoyed me, though, was that the girl had this big button with two pictures--one of an angelic blondish Jesus and one of a cartoony red-faced goateed Satan. The heading read, "It's your choice!"

*Rant a-comin' up right here*
For those of you playing at home, I'm Pagan. Eclectic Wiccan. Basically your average urban Witch. I don't make a big deal of it, usually, it's just something I do, like art or knitting or my glitter fixation.
Yeah, it's my choice...And I chose to look beyond the cartoony devil and angelic Jesus to the religious figures early Christianity demonized when they started to conquer the Middle East and Europe...or borrowed heavily from. I know it's stupid to rail against the "one or the other-absolute good-verses-absolute-evil" that permeates the culture I live in, believe me...but sometimes I can't help it because I'm expected to make all kinds of room for a world view that won't make room for me. I suppose I could wear a similar button, but I don't feel that sort of punitive religious stuff helps anyone. Don't get me wrong, people have the right to their beliefs, and I believe that firmly. I'm just very annoyed....not even so much by the button, but the increasingly narrow world view that button represents. A world that would gleefully throw me on the bonfire along with most of the people I know and like if they had even half a chance.

So I smiled and said "Thank you" and went home with my milk and apples.

I know I've opened up a can of worms here, just a bit.
*shrug*

Tell me your thoughts on the subject. Not so much the button,which isn't really that big a deal. Just...how do you feel?

Comments

[spitfire-sam.livejournal.com]

word, grrl. i'm so bout that.
what astounds me even more is the fact that christians actually think taht christianity is new or that the symbols appropriated by them are actually christianity's own symbolry.
that's rediculous, of course, to anyone who's studied early christian art. it was all stolen from the roman pantheon: from christ being compared to a shepherd (pan, anyone?) to the symbol of the tree (tree of life) to the rainbow (the symbol for Dawn, the female messenger of the gods).
it's so silly. they don't even recognize the actuality of the rise f the religion.
also: not having any religious beliefs myself (other than a healthy respect for the "unknown"), i am even more of an abnormailty to these people. pagans at least have a god/goddess or so that they "worship", i don't even have that. i'm an abomination.
attack of the abominable sam!! *attack, attack* *tickle*

[paradoxicalsoul.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree with you. And I'm learning more and more (now that I'm in school) about the history of our nation and how, although there are some good things, there are some awfully disgusting ones too. The thing that bugs me the most is that this nation tells it's people lots and lots of myths... like one of the biggest ones is that this nation has a founding principle of tolerance. Tolerance of religions, tolerance of other ways of life, etc. And it's such a bold faced lie. But you know, the scary thing is that there are an awful lot of people who fundamentally believe it still.

and it's just the tip of the ice-burg.

[mistressmedusa.livejournal.com]

I was of the belief that as a society we had come a long way. I came to realize that was not the case; I was surprised by many whom I thought "my secret is safe with them" that turned out to be narrow and stereotypical in their ideas that led me to beleive they never progressed pass the middle ages. blah!

Phooey on them!

Religion was something I never experienced as a child. Dream interpretation, astral traval and the discusion of paranormal experiences were just a part of everyday life. But now I have had the fine pleasure of reading, knowledge and even practical experience..... I went a roman catholic mass and was surprised how very similar parts ot the ceremony were to pagan ritual... (or vise versa) there are consistancies that are seen in almost all religions. we can not tag good or evil... religion is not that black and white.... as if those were the only two choices?!?!?! people need to open their eyes.

oh... ooops... I really was going somewhere with that.... seem to have strayed... need coffee... focus... focus...

[low-delta.livejournal.com]

And if youpoint out to them, that they're not really as tolerant as they think, they say, "Oh. You're right." Then their pride-for-however-they-are kicks in, and they openly hate you.

[paradoxicalsoul.livejournal.com]

*nods emphaticly* yes... oh yes... and lots and lots of defensivness and then the accusations start...

[specificocean.livejournal.com]

I think you should wear a proudly pagan button...

One of the great things about living in THIS country (unless Dubya and his gang have their way)...is that you can BE pagan...or christian...or agnostic...or an atheist...or a nothing...without being clapped in jail. Or thrown on the fire and burned...even though that girl at the store might contemplate doing that, if she knew what you believed.

Whew, guess that was MY rant! ....:-)

[sirreal13.livejournal.com]

I consider myself to be a church-fearing christian in the socialist sense. I believe in Jesus the prophet, but he was no more the son of god than Jimmy Carter. If Jesus were alive today, he would be branded as a naive anti-American wussy, becasue he would not allow any killing in his name.

I think the simplistic good vs. evil dichotomy is a substitute for rational critical thought. It reinforces the American distrust of intllectuals and book larnin' ingeneral. It's much easier to sell duct tape and plastic sheeting in such a simple world.

[greyyguy.livejournal.com]

What I find scary is how many people seem to use religion as a way of making themselves feel better about themselves, and feel superior to others that haven't found Jesus/been saved/been reborn/eaten the apple/whatever.

They completely miss the point of their religion which is to celebrate life and the force that created it. The name of that force being one of the favorite reasons people have to kills others who have a different name for that force.

It's very sad.

And if it isn't a can of worms, it isn't worth discussing :)

[crafting-change.livejournal.com]

Simplistic buttons/bumper stickers annoy the hell out of me.
This is why my backpack is littered with various mushycat buttons that are extremely political.
In the end though, I don't say anything until someone says something to me. We are all entitled to our view (no matter how insanely/stupidly simplistic).

Now, the moment that someone tries to 'witness' to me...that is another thing entirely.

[heartwork.livejournal.com]

many conservative christians scare me. i think people who become fanatical about any particular faith make me nervous. it's those who are really rigid about their beliefs that seem to be least tolerant of others.

all i know is christians are supposed to love everyone as a brother (or sister) and something keeps getting lost in the translation. :(

[branwynelf.livejournal.com]

think people who become fanatical about any particular faith make me nervous.

I'm just going to second what you said, coz basically that's what I was going to reply.

Although I would add that I'm less likely to say nothing when verbally confronted about having "found Jesus" or questioned when wearing my pentacle (in the case of buttons like mentioned above, I just tend to roll my eyes). But with verbal attacks or attempts to convert me, I usually have a snappy comeback of some sort. Most often to do with people not knowing the history of their own religion ... but sometimes more specifically tailored to the nature of their attack on me (my favourite being to wonder why it is that Christians are not only always losing their saviour, but they all think for some reason that I know where to find him for them).

[darkknight9.livejournal.com]

Just...how do you feel?

Sad. Icky. Amused. Mournful. Relief.

Sad, because I know that the individual in question may be bowing to beliefs without any more of a reason than, "its how I was brought up." There are far far to few social outlets for differing ideas and philosiphies. One can seek them out, but if you are naive to their presense, will you recognize them for what they are?

Icky. The idea of promoting ones own beliefs/ideals is not a new one, but to bring out just one set of buttons makes me too edgy. Show me that you have more depth than just religion. Let me know how you feel about other things. A person who focuses too much on one burning topic will not notice that the rest of the house, once on fire, is all but gone-burnt to the ground.

Amused at thinking of all of the times that I have met people who are fanatics. RAZORS. The few and the proud who have studied up on thier religion, and can quote a version of the bible backwards and forwards. Very rarely in my experience are the same people accepting or open minded. When they are: amusing, touching and heartfelt discussions can ensue.

Mournful when they are not open. A life lost. A mind gone. They may be good professionals, parents, and/or community activists. But they wont give any quarter to others who are different/wont convert. They should be respected for their dedication, but not necessarily the cause.

Relief that a kid who went through catholic schools for most of his life didn't feel the need to "just understand" or "just believe". Relief that developing a caring heart with an open mind was and is indeed possible. Relief that he can watch Dogma and laugh histerics.

[silentbob037.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's the fact that I live in the San Francisco Bay Area or just California in general, but it seems like there is more acceptance in this area than in others. I have Christian friends that are best friends with Pagans and they never have a problem with their conflicting views. Like I said, maybe I'm just lucky to live in the area that I do, but it doesn't seem like all the Christians out here openly dislike others.

My personal thought would be to wear your beliefs and views as openly as you feel comfortable. If the people around you have a problem with that and you aren't doing anything to force your views on them then it's their own personal hang-ups and it would probably be easier just to let them live in their own little world.

[sylvidoptera.livejournal.com]

I try NOT to think about it because 99% of Christians and other Jesus-following religious people DRIVE ME NUTS! to the point of wanting to walk up to them and smack them around with a clue-by-four. heh.

I'm not really anything... but other people classifying me would say pagan. I just say psychic. :)

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

I think that's a good thing to say:D Some of the best people are psychic.;)

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

Possibly, possibly...Minneapolis is kind of an unoficial Mecca for alternative religious folk, and a handful of my friends are devout in some Christian faith or another. We're gentle with each other, and learn from each other, so it's good...

I just get more and more alarmed with the dramatic simplistic changes happening all around us--stuff that was always there, definitely, but is now in an environment where the hard-core feel there's nothing to stop them from inflicting themselves on anyone they want in any way they can.

Minnesota's become very reactionary lately. I caught myself singing "Minnesota--Uber alles, Minnesota UUU-ber alles!" in the elevator.:(

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Man, I love that movie.

and your thoughtful post:)

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

Very true...some of the snootiest people I've ever met were "More Pagan than Thou"-types. Made me want to shake them and yell, "You're not helping anyone, ya dummies!"

As for Christian love and charity,yeah, a lot of time when I see it, even if it's really well-meant, there seems to be some kind of string tied to it. sometimes it's more blatant than other times.
Most of the time it's not a mean thing, just that someone was taught that they're helping people by harrassing them. (which if course doesn't mean that this is right or unoffensive or insulting...)

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

Neat buttons!!!

And true, someone getting in my face and witnessing is a totally different ketle of worms...eew, squirmy!

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

*Pokes worms*

*watches the squiggles*

good point, sir...good point...

*Holds up a small worm named Mitchell*

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

yep yep...we'll need therm books to keep us warm on the bonfire, ya know! Yeehaw!

It bothers me that we've swung so hard to the simplistic.
Okay, more than bothers, scares the beejesus out of me...

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

I've got a couple. Mayb it's time to get a couple out...maybe the 13th Airborne witch division patch:)

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

Nono, please, carry on:)

*Pours you coffee*
there you go.

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

I think it's a good concept to belive in, our 'tolerance"...but we do have to know we've done horrible things in the name of our nation...often in the name of our tolerant "Mission." Our history is pretty damn awful like that, and it's awful the way people have to dig and dig to find out what relly happened. No wonder people believe the lies we're fed from birth:(

Maybe if we keep working on it, we'l someday get a lot closer to true tolerance.

[specificocean.livejournal.com]

That works!......*g*

I say fight fire with fire (though I don't have any agnostic-verging-upon-atheist buttons...hmmmmmm....)...

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

**eeeeek!*
Oh gods noooo, geteroffmeegetheroffmeeee!
Hahaha! ahahahhaaa!!
*wriggle squirm*

[mistressmedusa.livejournal.com]

thank you *takes coffee*...

I got stuck watching America's Top Model (this is relevent, btw, but I will give you some background first) of all the model wanna be's there is an adorable girl, who's goal is to be a doctor, she is an acedemic, and way isolated by the others. well last night... one of the snooty girls was gazing at her bible, called the acedemic over, handed her the bible, pointed at a phrase and said "read this".... well the acedemic, being athiest, was quite offended. (can't blame her) that was way rude!!!!

Once upon a time... I was so anti-christian... and by studying Wicca.... I have come to respect it as well as many other religions........ but why can't other people be that way???
*big huff*

[sirreal13.livejournal.com]

This month's Progressive has a great interview with Kurt Vonnegut about this very topic. How TV is doing nothing to correct the simplistic innuendoes that got "us" to buy into the most expensive war of the century.

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

Oooh...I've always had a lot of respect for Mr. Vonnegut.
And the topic is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. (as have we all.)

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[msfledermaus.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that is pretty rude...It really churns my guts when people do that.

sometimes I think that we're just programmed and programmed to shove people into conforming with whatever we're told is desirable socially. Maybe another question would be, "Why don't we accept this kind of pushing as acceptable?"


...i dunno, the whole thing frustrates me so. And it's been a lot worse after Dubya took power, go fig.